A few years ago, when my daughter Sophie was 10, she started to say, “I’m no good at maths. I hate it!”
At the time, Sophie was using a formal structured maths course. When she started sighing over her work, I knew that it was time to face an uncomfortable idea and unschool maths.
Of course, I could have forced Sophie to keep working at her course. I could have ignored her complaints and pushed her to complete the exercises. I could have said, “You need to learn maths. This is important.”
But I didn’t.
There were a few reasons I threw away the structured maths course. It was failing to ignite Sophie’s interest in what is potentially a fascinating subject. It was also undermining her confidence. And lastly, I knew if I forced Sophie to do the course work, she’d be wasting her time. She might work her way through all the exercises, ticking off the boxes, but would she retain much of what she was learning?
John Holt said:
Of course, a child may not know what he may need to know in ten years (who does?), but he knows, and much better than anyone else, what he wants and needs to know right now, what his mind is ready and hungry for. If we help him, or just allow him, to learn that, he will remember it, use it, build on it. If we try to make him learn something else, that we think is more important, the chances are that he won’t learn it, or will learn very little of it, that he will soon forget most of what he learned, and what is worst of all, will before long lose most of his appetite for learning
anything.
We can’t force kids to learn what we think is important even though we often spend a lot of time trying to do just that.
In this week’s podcast, Episode 99: Real Life Family Unschool Maths, I continue the unschool maths conversation:
- Can we force kids to learn things they don’t want to know about?
- What if we have to show evidence that our kids are learning maths for homeschool registration purposes?
- Why should we sometimes put ourselves in our kids’ shoes?
- How can we become maths detectives?
- What is wrong with most maths games?
- Can we approach maths backwards?
I also share a few learning and maths blog posts and discuss the ideas in them:
- Making Children Learn What They Don’t Want to Know
- Approaching Maths Backwards
- Becoming Real Life Maths Detectives
- Why Kids With Families Don’t Need Workbooks to Learn Basic Maths Skills
Podcast Music: Twombly by Podington Bear, (CC BY-NC 3.0)
Images: Gemma-Rose is sitting next to big brother Duncan. Family gatherings around the table are special occasions. We share a meal with people we love. And while we’re doing that, we also share a lot of real life maths!
After listening to this podcast or reading the post Why Kids With Families Don’t Need Workbooks to Learn Basic Maths Skills, you’ll be familiar with one of our family maths stories. But I’d like to hear yours. You could share a few maths facts about your family!
And if you have a question that I can answer in Episode 100, please stop by and ask it!
Thank you, Sue, for the lovely podcast! I am enjoying listening to it each week! I would love to hear more episodes!
Chrissy,
I really appreciated your feedback on my podcast. If you’ve listened to this week’s episode you’ll know I’m going to make more episodes (as long as I can think of interesting things to talk about!).
Thank you so much for taking the time to write a comment!
Thanks Sue. I love your podcasts and your posts. Thank you for all your efforts, I hope you continue to make podcasts but you have left us a lot of material to go through if you decide not to make any more podcasts. My children & I are looking forward to the next book of the Angel family adventures. Both books were great family stories.
Deb,
You are wonderfully encouraging! Thank you! When you get a chance to listen to last week’s podcast you’ll hear that I decided to keep podcasting. As long as I can find enough interesting things to talk about and people want to listen, I’ll make new episodes. I really appreciate your kind feedback.
It’s also good to know that you and your children want to read more of my Angels stories. I promised my Goddaughter I’d finish the 3rd book. I hope it doesn’t take me forever to do that!
Thank you for being such a supportive and encouraging friend.
I’ve been listening to your podcasts for awhile now. I don’t think to make comments, but I hear it helps you to know if anyone is listening. This has been a very helpful episode, as so many of your podcasts usually are! I really appreciate your words of encouragement and your wisdom ?. Thank you!!!!
Kara,
I’m so pleased you stopped by. Thank you for your kind feedback. I’m glad you enjoyed this podcast!
Sue,
Would it be alright for me to ask you a question? I’m fairly new to Unschooling. I have given my boys full freedom to using their devices and internet. They have all found youtubers that they enjoy, and feel compelled to watch them when they know a live episode is coming on. They spend most of their days when home watching favorite youtubers or playing video games. Even though I see the content is acceptable and even educational at times, I still find myself worrying that they would rather watch one more episode than make their own creation. Can you enlighten me on this? Did you have any rules around their consumption verses production? I’d appreciate your insight.
Kara,
I don’t know if I have the right answers but I’m always happy to chat.
Your question is interesting. I hadn’t thought about the ratio of consuming to producing before. I enjoyed talking over the question with my daughter Imogen. Here’s what we came up with:
Consuming is good. Youtube is full of interesting information and ideas. And some of the Youtubers are very inspiring. We need to consume in order to produce. When we rely only on ourselves, we become stale. It’s good to absorb ideas and learn from other people. When we are ready to create, we’ll use some of what we’ve consumed but in a different way, our own unique way.
Should we be forced to produce? If there is pressure to produce, if we have to produce to order to fill a requirement, then we aren’t going to produce anything valuable. We might produce as quickly as possible so that we can return to consuming as quickly as possible. Maybe kids are more inclined to experiment and try things out for themselves when there isn’t any pressure, when they can do things in their own way and time.
Can we encourage kids to produce something of their own? We can offer some suggestions. I bet you have lots of interesting conversations with your kids about the Youtubers they enjoy and the games they like to play. Could you base some of your strewing around these interests? Perhaps you could suggest a game making website or an animation software program or something similar. Open up the possibilties. Strewing is good. The hard bit is stepping back and not getting frustrated if our suggestions are rejected.
My kids are always working on their ideas, producing things of their own. Maybe this has a lot to do with the fact that I do this as well. We read books and websites and watch videos etc, share ideas and information, mull over possibilities, encourage each other, offer help, enjoy creating together. I wonder if you could share some of your own projects and ideas with your children in a similar way.
I don’t know if any of this is helpful. If I’ve gone off track and haven’t addressed your concerns, please let me know!
Thank you for your response! I know my question was not quite related to this podcast, so i appreciate you going down the rabbit hole with me 🙂 Your answer is helpful, and I have been working on having more discussion with my boys about what they are watching and why, but I still feel unsure at times.
Here’s an example of my concern… the other day, my son was watching a video of someone building a city on City Skylines website. I asked him about the game itself and if he would want to build his own city. He said it costs too much money, which was just $20. I offered to buy it for him, but he said he didn’t have the patience to actually build the city and that he just liked watching someone else do it. This seems to be the theme around here. Just consuming and not trying things out for themselves. I’m guessing this is part of the “deschooling” I’ve been reading about, and I just need to wait? But it is hard to not get concerned. Have you gone through this kind of time?
Kara,
Your son’s response to the City Skylines game reminds me of myself! There are things that fascinate me and I like to watch other people involved with them, but I have no desire to do them myself. For example, I love watching art videos, seeing people draw and paint. It seems like magic to me. However, I know I don’t have the patience to do something similar. I want to look, because it’s entertaining but that’s all. I’d prefer to create something virtual on my computer like a blog post or a graphic or edit a photo rather than find some pencils and draw a picture.
Maybe your son will suddenly find something he feels passionate about and then he might want to produce something. Though I’m wondering if producing something visible is always necessary. Schools demand assignments as evidence that a child has learnt something: essays, science projects, tests… Even when kids go on excursions to such places as the zoo they have to fill in worksheets to prove they have been paying attention. When we have to provide homeschool records, we might also want some evidence that will prove to the education department that our kids are learning: samples of writing, completed maths problems, projects… It can be hard not to think in terms of a finished product instead of just trusting our kids are learning.
Often our kids are eager to tell us about what they’ve discovered. We can ask questions and have interesting discussions. And it will be very obvious they are learning a lot and enjoying it too!
This is also an interesting discussion! I hope you enjoy the weekend!
Thank you Sue! That was very well said. I know I am speaking from worry. I’ve been listening to lots of podcasts on Unschooling, including yours. I think because there is a need to show that Unschooling DOES work, and my own need to hear it works, I’m hearing all the creative things kids do. Observing all these kids pursue their interests in a “productive” way, has made me compare my kids to those success stories. I became too impatient to see results. I do see results in discussion. I do see they are learning. I just need to remember to trust they will find their way as they grow and most of all, that God is leading them.
I really appreciate you taking this time to answer me. I think the hardest thing is not having a community of Unschooling families I know personally. I homeschooled for 10 years and do have wonderful friends from that circle. But now that I’m in a different mindset of education, there is a disconnect with my sweet Mom friends. I understand where they are, but they cannot understand me! ?. It can feel lonely at times. Like when I’m feeling a bit worried. You have helped! I’m good now. God bless!!!
Kara,
I remember being impatient to see my kids doing creative things too. I expected them to instantly copy the example of all the unschooling kids I was reading about who were doing amazing things. I was sure my kids would do the same and when they didn’t, I got frustrated.
Kids need time to discover thier passions and interests. If we are patient and keep on strewing interesting things and experiences around them, I’m sure they will all find their ‘own thing’ and do amazing things too. Sometimes what they do is very different from what we expect. Sometimes it isn’t very showy. But it’s always good. Yes, God will indeed lead them. He has a particular pathway for each of us. We can’t really compare our kids to others though we are tempted to do this!
My older kids have been involved in some wonderful projects for a long time, but it’s only been in the last year that my youngest daughter Gemma-Rose (who turned 14 a couple of weeks ago) has become passionate about a few things of her own. She rejected a lot of my suggestions, things I was sure she would be good at. But now she’s drawing and writing and running… and is as busy with her own work as her older siblings. It’s exciting!
Kara, I understand about feeling lonely and isolated. We don’t know any unschoolers in real life. I’m sure our local homeschooling friends think we are strange. When our kids were younger, I kept quiet about our way of parenting and educating so we’d fit in. These days it’s obvious we are different because I blog and podcast and vlog about what we really believe and do! Have you linked into an online unschooling community? I’ve met lots of beautiful unschooling parents online. I did belong to some FB groups but FB stressed me out and I ended up deleting my account. I’ve been pondering whether I should start a community of my own linked to this blog. Something to think about! In the meantime, you are always welcome to stop by if you have any more questions and concerns. I am happy to chat!
I’m glad you’re feeling better. God bless you!